Pueblog USa
Thursday, February 26, 2009
On Pinion Canyon — 2
Why the resistence?
Some additional thoughts on the situation around Pinion Canyon. These deal with the history to date.
In the last quarter of the 20th Century….[Gads! That makes me feel sooooo ‘old’.]....I worked at Fort Carson and with units that trained in Pinion Canyon. Indeed. I was an infantry company commander at Fort Carson.
The problem is that one cannot maneuver—for training purposes—anything larger than a brigade. And even then, it has to be a force-on-force excercise—one group against another—as the entire brigade cannot maneuver effectively. This does not allow the brigade commander and his staff to function properly, as all they are in a force-on-force exercise is the ‘referee’. Not the commander of their entire force. This is, in my honest opinion, PP training. [Note: The smart people can figure out what “PP” stands for.]
Fort Carson and the units stationed there need more room to maneuver in order to train well.
Pinion Canyon, as it is today, was purchased in order to provide additional maneuver space. However, people who have no regard for national security, maneuvered themselves to prevent it from being used to its intended purposes. Anyplace where it was suspected that some pre-Columbian American Indian hunting party make a fire to cook their game was declared an archeological find. Therefore ‘off-limits’ for maneuvering units. This restricted training of combat forces to ‘roads’ and ‘trails’ This, in effect, made the training area useless to its intended purposes.
Now, with the expansion of Fort Carson’s tenant units to the return of the 4th Infantry Division (Mechanized) along with aviation and special operations, we need to review the training areas to support these forces. Pinion Canyon is part of that review.
So this fellow lives in the area of Pinion Canyon. And he’s opposed to expanding it to provide for good training of the people who protect his property, liberty and life.
WHY? And I invite anyone here to answer that question…...
Next entry: Caveat Emptor — Cooper Wiring Devices Previous entry: Caveat Emptor — Gain$saver-
Well, the first part of your questions are kind of two sided . . One, those ranchers don’t want to give up their homes and means of living, and they, (2) because of history, don’t believe Unk’l Sam will do whatever he says he will do in their interest. After all, they do have the treatment of the Noble Red Man by the Guv’mint as well as the Army as a reference. And, according to them, it’s still a pattern, The Army saying one thing while leaking (or saying) information to do another . .
I have argued your side of the debate on another forum, with some of the principals involved . . And they have definite points . . As does the Army. But it tends to be a NIMBY issue, and because Ft. Carson is just over the hill, some of our own City council members feel that it’s “Too Close” and they too, don’t see an expansion outside the current boundaries. Add to that the recent fire that spread, to the horror of all the talking heads, and who blamed “careless training” for the fire, and you get a lot of negativity anyplace outside of El Paso County.
My own experience as a Range NCO at Camp Roberts, CA back in the early 60’s gives me a certain amount of insight on the needs as well as the results in a quite similar area. The problem with the new Army is the greater mechanization, thus the need for more area to maneuver . . And ideally, the “leaked” area (the Southeastern part of the state) is about what is needed and a little bigger than Ft. Irwin. Problem is, tracks aren’t ecologically friendly and they tear hell out of any type of terrain. In the grasslands NE of Pinion Canyon, the tracks made by one M 113 will be seen from the air for 100 years . . so what would you have after a brigade size armored combat training exercise? Basically a dust bowl. Which, even if re-seeded, will more than likely blow into Western Kansas before once again becoming part of the planet. It’s arid, so if you tear up the range, there’s nothing there to support rotational grazing and reclamation, if, the Army deigned to do that . . . This is the reality you’re up against, and as I said before, The ranchers have learned, Great White father speak with Forked Tongue . . . always has, always will . .
As far as talking Patriotism to them . . Few listen, fewer understand or even try to . . And as Goofy as it sounds, even if you were to offer those who are less than economically sound in their operations, large sums of money to go live on a beach in a plush home, and never have any more worries, most of ‘em would tell you to go screw yerself . . Go figure . . It’s kind of like the prairie is a sacred trust . .
You also have to remember that because of their numbers, The ranchers and tenants are viewed as the “Underdog” by everyone in Colorado except El Paso County. And if you followed any of it, you saw what an uproar a bunch of “Gentlemen ranchers” did to a $2 Billion dollar Toll Road that would have saved the Colorado Taxpayers about twice that . .
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/07 at 02:35 PM -
AND . . this morning’s paper told of the one property owner who the Army knew, at one time or another, was gonna fold . . They made him an offer he couldn’t refuse . .
Now, it’s gonna be “Katie bar the Door”, because the marginal ranchers now have some sort of idea of the going price of their properties, and they’re hoping to step up and get their retirements paid for . . but, the smaller entities aren’t going to be anywhere as valuable . . simply because having a parcel of land in the middle of a firing range doesn’t keep property values up . .
The Army’s in . . and “Not 1 more Acre” is probably out . .
And both Senators and John Salazar? It’s all cool, because as soon as the second seller steps forward, the monkey’s off their backs, and El Paso county will vote for them once more . .
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/10 at 10:31 AM -
Hmmm, This morning’s paper seems to be full of . . er . . recriminations perhaps? Everything they printed yesterday was backpedaled on today. By everyone involved. And the politicians are pulling out their blackberries and checking to see where the Army could get the money . .
I think the proper name might be “A Chinese Fire Drill” . . . for all parties involved, starting with our news source . .
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/11 at 07:44 AM -
TO: LARGE
RE: Camp Roberts, You Say?My own experience as a Range NCO at Camp Roberts, CA….—LARGE
Been there. Interesting place….depending upon the season and the mission.
Irwin too, before it became NTC and after.
RE: Pinion Canyon
In the grasslands NE of Pinion Canyon, the tracks made by one M 113 will be seen from the air for 100 years . . so what would you have after a brigade size armored combat training exercise? Basically a dust bowl.—LARGE
Can’t speak to that. At least not without seeing the EIS. However, I do recall that Pinion Canyon has been used by mech forces since the 80s. Is it a ‘dust bowl’ now? Carson isn’t. Each Spring the grass comes forth anew.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/11 at 10:44 AM -
Quote:Carson isn’t. Each Spring the grass comes forth anew.
Yeah, Roberts . . also supported CEDC at Hunter Liggett and Irwin (at that time NTC was just three letters in the alphabet) Roberts, at the time, was the Summer Training Camp for three different Reserve Divisions and one NG Division, one at a time, of course . . and although Armor was a large part of the makeup,it was nothing to the current concept . .
And at Roberts and Hunter Liggett, “the grass grew back” (and i never saw a lot of grass at Irwin) . . except on the trails themselves, just as they do at Carson.
As far as pinion Canyon being a “Dust bowl” . . kinda . . based on what several of my friends (who are currently active Army) tell me . . It’s almost “desert” down there and if it doesn’t rain shortly after maneuvers, then it’s “blowdirt” . . if it rains while they’re still there, get out the M-88s . .
BUT, I can take you out on foot, and show you ruts in the prairie made by wagons a hundred years ago, or I can take you quite a few places and show you tracks of off road vehicles made 20 years ago . . and yeah . . “the grass grew back” . . more or less . .
And that’s what those old cowboys (and the young gentlemen ranchers, too) know and think . . Although every single one (Being typical cowboys) won’t walk three steps in any direction when they can ride or drive . .
Nonetheless, if the Army has tracks roaring around an area, the ranchers consider that “Wasting” cow food . . . that their cows could be eating and creating wealth for them . .
That’s their view, I grew up with a lot of them, so sometimes I can still understand where they come from . . and sometimes I can’t . .
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/11 at 01:26 PM -
TO: LARGE
RE: [OT] Camp Roberts4ID(M) sent a team to do an evaluation on 40ID CANG in ‘84. I was part of the G3 shop contingent.
I walked into the 4ID(M) HQ with the Mad Cav G3 (Barry Hartman). The one-star saw the bag I was totting and asked what was in it. I said my computer. He gently put his arm around my shoulder and said, “Follow me, young captain.” At which point I knew I was in for some kind of ‘fun’.
I spent the next few weeks:
(1) Generating a database system to take in, tabulate and spit out reformatted data on the 1-Rs for every company or detachment level formation being evaluated.
(2) Processing 1-Rs received at 1900 hrs until 0200 hrs.
(3) Printing out reports of the previous to-date 1-Rs until 0300 hrs.
(4) Catching 2 hours of sleep before….
(5) Bursting the fan-fold, multi-part printouts for the general, the evaluationers and the evaluated commanders.
(6) Turning said print-outs over to my boss, the 4ID(M) G3, to hand deliver to the general.
(7) Going back to what passed of a Q, pulling the WWII vintage blanket over my head and getting some sleep before starting the drill again.The Q was ‘interesting’. A WWII barracks converted to ‘officer’ material. The upper sash on my room’s window was nailed open at 1”. So was the lower sash.
I remember one interesting moment from walking down the hall to the showers.
I was singing—I sing baritone—,in a serendipitis manner, a song from My Fair Lady….
All I want is a room somewhere;
Far away from the cold NIGHT AIIIIR.At which point I found myself singing a duet with someone in probably a similar circumstance down the hall….
With one enormous chaiiiir.
Oh wooooouldn’t it be luverly!After the evaluation was over, the general threw some car-keys at me and said I’d done good. “Go out and have some REAL fun, now.”
For three days, I and two of my comrades-in-arms, drove about the vineyards between El Paso Robles and San Luis Abysmal and visited all the better spots to dine.
RE: Pinion Canyon Environment
I’ll differ to your associates regarding what grows and doesn’t in Pinion Canyon. It’s a semi-arid environment in the first place. Like MOST of southern Colorado.
Do we have ENOUGH such environment that we can afford to spare some for training men and women to defend our country? Or will the sky fall if we give up some of it for training the United States Armed Forces?
What are the ‘down-wind’ effects of additional ‘dust’ from training a heavy brigade there?
Where is the Environmental Impact Statement? SURELY someone has required the Army to do such a thingie.
RE: Pinion Canyon People
It’s a dilemma. As all weighty issues are. And I do believe you pointed out something similar above, regarding government officials, of the legislative persuasion, being more willing to waste American tax dollars in favor of garnering votes. And, as I pointed out somewhere around here, in the process endangering the sons and daughters of said voters in the process.
The problem is, that when it gets down to it, do these people treasure their money over their own children? Or maybe they’re just ‘ignorant’ and proud of it.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[It’s all sherry and giggles until someone’s life is actually on the line.—CBPelto].(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/12 at 11:12 AM -
As for “Roberts’ . . it’s changed, but it hasn’t, since my long summer there. Range Central is in the same place, but the ranch house that served as the offices, apparently is gone . . But other than added rifle ranges on the East end of the old “D” area, nothing else in the “outback’ has changed much according to the Google Earth shots . . They did add a large motor pool and ordinance shop(s) across 101 in the “East Garrison” area and the exterior of the Barracks have been painted and new roofing applied . . The year I was there as a range NCO (63), according to Dept. Army was the last year the post was going to be used. It was to be completely deactivated and dismantled . .
Instead, it’s supplier of logistics and manpower, Ft. Ord was . . a little while later . . On the other hand, Hunter Liggett has been expanded to the max . . with the areas used by the tracks about triple the areas we were allowed into back in the early 60’s. Hunter Liggert is where the army decided for me that I really didn’t want to Re-Up and go to rotary wing school . . During a support mission of CEDC, they brought in the first Hueys I had ever seen, and as a fire control (turret) specialist, I was one of the ordinance guys who installed a MWO in the birds, mounting four BMGs, two per side (in tandem) on the skids . . and watched demonstrated “air support” using those birds at about 500 feet altitude . . my indelible impression at the time? “Aluminum Pigeons” . .
Anyhoo, our ordinance company did a lot of support for several combat brigades all over 6th Army, plus, (at that time) and we went to all of God’s places. Yakima Firing Center, Irwin, Fort Rich, Alaska (several times), Fort Greeley, Alaska (just once, in the winter!) and of course Hunter and Roberts . . But the summer of ‘63 was a pretty good one, looking back. My range officer, at the time, one 2nd Lt. Donald G. Edwards, who was a goofy little guy who made you want to make it all work (we didn’t have any money but the Army gave us 8 NG E-2 OJTs as slaves) and a grouchy old M/Sgt (Kaska) who looked a whole lot like “Sarge” in Beetle Bailey . . and 5 spec 4’s and 5’s who became “acting E-6’s” complete with chevrons and two tone blocked caps . . we wuz the Range staff . . “B” area was mine . . . the LT stayed in and retired as a Maj. Gen.
A Captain who ran S-2, who taught us everything we started out knowing about Ranges and Range control . . which was great until the first division got to Roberts . . then, we really learned how to make the ranges work . . Christ, we had people everywhere! . . and where people are shooting live ammo, you only get a couple of “oops!” . .
But, we all made it work, no one got killed, or even wounded during our summer there. (from April thru September) and when we left, I thought Roberts would be a cow pasture the next time I saw it . . Two years ago, my wife and I stayed overnight in Paso Robles, and just after daylight there was a volley of what sounded like smoothbores, so I gathered that they’re still using the place. And the grass is still growing back . .
On that note, during the winters, at Roberts, back then, Dept Army leased out grazing rights to Utah sheepmen, who had sheep and Basque herders there when we got there in April . . they pulled out the first of May . . If I remember correctly, they were supposed to come in sometime around the first of November . . at least that’s what I was told . . sooo, I don’t see a problem with rotational grazing and use areas . . But then I’m not a cowboy or rancher . .
Kinda dazzles me . . though, the ranchers don’t want the land changed, but don’t hesitate to lease pads for windmills at $6,056 per pad, and if you drive down 287 south of Springfield, I’d say a windmill farm desecrates the prairie far worse than a tank trail . . And those freakin pads are as permanent as the Pyramids! . . butwotthehelldoIknow?
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/12 at 12:32 PM -
After the Barrage published in the paper this morning, I began to wonder . . Are those people and their Politicians totally nuts?
Do they realize that DOD is the second largest employer in the state and also contributes the second largest amount of money here?
Do they also realize that the U.S.Army is one of the most mobile entities in the world? If they aren’t wanted in an area, they can find one they are wanted in, and move, lock, stock and barrel . .
And several counties in Colorado can thank Bill Ritter and the Colorado State Legislature, the Colorado Congressmen, women and Senators for the lost tax dollars . .
My advice, although I haven’t been asked, would be: let Wes McKinley represent his constituents, and let the rest of those A—holes represent the rest of the state’s population . .
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 03/30 at 02:20 PM